๏ปฟ18th Oct 2022 AMPstigator Season Three Episode 37: What Loss Teaches About Life
With Guest Katie Radel
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lauren: This is AMPstigator. A podcast founded on purpose but focused on the path to get there. Experience is the best teacher, and in this season of AMPstigator, we're going all in on female perspective of women and wisdom. As we answer one specific question: What's the lesson here? You'll hear from my best girlfriends and favorite female collaborators, as we share, deeply, about what we're here to learn and teach as we guide other women to purpose.
Welcome back to AMPstigator. Today is another real-life episode for you, and what I mean by that is, this isn't an episode where somebody's trying to sell you something. Nobody's hawking a book. No one's trying to sell a service.
This is a real woman. She's a real mom, she runs a real business, and she's lived some real-life hard lessons. And just as the episode title suggests, those lessons are how loss can teach you how to live.
Katie Radel has that trademark, Midwesterner kindness. It's so darn endearing. She always smiles and she's always invested in you and how you're feeling, and she's just a good friend. You could just feel that, partly, because she's such a good listener. And then also she knows how to follow up with you and what you're going through. She's one of those friends that's so great about that.
Now, in this episode, she shares publicly why she's that way, and her path to get there might surprise you. Because it goes through grief and loss. Growing up the family business in Cincinnati, Ohio, it was the funeral home. Yes, she grew up in a funeral home.
So, early in this episode, she talks about the odd jobs she did, which is pretty amazing because it just feels so unusual. Hearses are involved by the way. But that turns into her story about the time, at age 31, when she was confronted with the death of someone incredibly close to her.
She talks through what she learned through that traumatic loss, and then what it meant for her failing marriage, at the time, and the choices she had to make. I mean, there is real-life stuff in this conversation. And it is worth noting all of that is happening, while Katie was also going out on her own as an entrepreneur. I mean, talk about a crazy time in her life.
She currently owns her own PR marketing agency. She does work for large organizations and also does pro bono work for nonprofits, that are really special to her. So she's cultivating meaning and fulfillment all the time in the work she's doing and in the stories that she's telling. And I think what I love about Katie's episode is just how real it is, because I hate surface-level conversations. I don't do them. I avoid them.
I always want to know what makes a person who they are. I want to know what shaped them. And in this episode, you'll learn why Katie Radel brings such a calm and accepting reverence to every conversation.
More than anything, I want my episodes to show people they are not alone. And grief and loss can be your teacher if you let them. It's been Katie's, and that's why I'm glad to share her episode today. This is Katie Radel with the lessonโ How Loss Teaches Life.
Here where I want to start with you, Katie, I mean, you have so many things to add that we're going to get into this conversation. But the most remarkable thing to me is how you were raised.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: So that's actually where I want to start and wherever our conversation blossoms from there, great. But you did not have a typical family business that you were raised in?
Katie: Not at all. My family is in the funeral industry in Ohio, and it's actually third generation, so we're going way back.
Lauren: So your dad's a third generation?
Katie: My dad is third generation.
Lauren: Wow.
Katie: So it's been in the family for a really long time. And most people when they have their first job, it's babysitting or cutting grass.
Lauren: And mine was at a water park. I was what's called a tube buster.
Katie: A tube buster. I love that.
Lauren: So now you know what you're dealing with. But your first job was?
Katie: Well, I was going to say lifeguard, my first job was working at my family funeral hall.
Lauren: Doing?
Katie: Well, I joke and I say I was doing odd jobs, but really they were very odd jobs.
Lauren: They were very odd jobs with dead people.
Katie: Right.
Lauren: Okay, what were you doing?
Katie: Sure, so everything from, I mean, cutting the grass to maintaining the hearses.
Lauren: Okay.
Katie: I would work a lot of visitations.
Lauren: Doing what? Handing out, what are they called? I was about to say pamphlets they are not pamphlets.
Katie: Well, there's programs.
Lauren: Programs, thank you.
Katie: So opening the door, making sure coffee is made, cleaning up after visitations, I would go on funerals sometimes. There were a few times I drove the hearse. So we had a limo as well, and I mean, talk about having to be able to navigate a limo in, kind of, a different level.
Lauren: Precious cargo.
Katie: Very precious cargo. So there were a few times I drove the limo and there was a grieving family in the back.
Lauren: Wow.
Katie: And, to me, it was just part of the business. Part of growing up, part of what I was used to, I didn't know any different.
Lauren: Didn't you live above it at one point in your life?
Katie: I did. So when I was 16, my brother and I moved above the funeral home with my dad. So it was the three of us in this apartment. And the funeral home is this gorgeous old building, and there's an apartment above it, and we lived there, for a while, until I went to college. And actually after college there was a vacancy above the funeral home and I moved in there for a little while. I lived there by myself for a little while right after college, after I graduated.
Did it occur to you that people saw you living above a funeral home, being involved in funeral homes, it almost feels like a party trick. Did people treat it that way? Of like, "She drove the hearse."
Katie: At times, and when you're young, and you're growing up, and you're in high school. I think it was, maybe, a novelty of, "Oh, that's so creepy or whatever." But I think my close friends, my close circle of friends, they just got used to it like I did, and didn't treat it any differently.
Lauren: Well, I mean, death is harrowed ground. I mean, it's you are, consistently, seeing people at their worst. So like the family of the person who has passed.
You're seeing people at their absolute worst. When they're grieving, when they're sad, maybe when they're angry. And then a lot of times death brings out the worst in people because then there are fights and it's sad, and you saw all of that from a young age.
Katie: From a young age, and I think the gift that I was given is being exposed to that vulnerable moment in someone's life, it is a snapshot. And, so, people trust you with that.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: That is a huge level of trust to be there at that moment, at your literal worst moment in your life. And, yes, it's very true, I think death brings out the best and the worst in people.
There are so many levels of emotion there, and I look at it sometimes as a wedding. Weddings can be very emotional for people, too, because there's family dynamics and just so many levels there that just complicate things.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: And, so, I like to say it brings out the worst and the best of people.
Lauren: Yes, it's almost like it's been a teacher for you, in this really interesting way.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: And I know, for me, personally, as I reflect on on your story, I haven't experienced, or witnessed, or dealt with much death at all in my life. My first family member to die only just died two years ago.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: I mean, this was really recent and I had never been to a funeral until then. I am in my late thirties, think about that. And I reflect on your story, and yours is the exact opposite. Seeing and being confronted with end of life all the time.
I mean, gosh, there's probably so many things that it's taught you. What do you think are some of the most accessible things that you can just pull, right now, that it has taught you? That death has taught you?
Katie: Well, I like to think of death and grief, really, as teachers. Death has taught me so much and it has taught me how to live, most of all. There have been different times in my life where I'm faced with adversity or even tragic situations. Where I have personal loss and I have this unique ability, I think, because I learned from such an early age that death really is part of life.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And we would be remiss not to learn from it. And, so, through each personal loss and tragedy, and just friends who have lost loved ones, and just living life it's part of the continuum.
Lauren: Oh, yes.
Katie: I think the biggest lesson that I have learned from that is you better live.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: You better live and you better live on your terms, and take advantage of the life that we're given today.
Lauren: Yes. You lost your mom so young. Was it that you were 31 or were you 30? Remind me?
Katie: I was 31.
Lauren: Mm-hmm. Tell me about that time and what was going on in your life, and how that changed things for you losing her so young.
Katie: Sure. Well, I think that was the biggest personal loss I experienced. That really it changed my life in so many different ways. And at the time, gosh, I was going through a lot in my life. I was 31, and young, and just trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. And at the time-
Lauren: But you were employed.
Katie: I was employed.
Lauren: Let's be clear, you were doing PR already.
Katie: Absolutely, I was on a great track. But I had been married for about five years and the marriage was not a great one. And I think I knew that deep down inside, but back then, gosh, I've done so much work leading up to this point and now I'm 42. That overwhelmingly I wasn't choosing me, and there was so many red flags.
Lauren: In the relationship, you're saying?
Katie: In the relationship, so many red flags in the relationship, and things were rocky. And I remember getting a call, my mom at the time, she was living in Ohio, and she said, "Well," she was very matter of fact. "Well, I hate to ruin your day." She's a character, "But I have cancer and we'll see what happens, but it's not looking so great."
Lauren: Hmm.
Katie: And I remember that was in January, and I just remember thinking, "Well, okay, we're going to see how this goes." And I know that she is one of the toughest people I know, so there's no doubt in my mind that she's going to fight. But on the peripheral there was this bubbling of my marriage just falling apart, totally, falling apart.
Well, the last thing I wanted to tell my mom, when she was fighting cancer, is that, "Well, hey, guess what, I know you're in Ohio, you're fighting cancer, and I'm in Tennessee and things aren't looking so great." So I never told her.
So after a little bit of time, I would say about seven or eight months, she fought really hard. And I know now that when I would check in with her. She would say, "I'm fine, everything's fine." She definitely was not fine, but that was her way of protecting me.
Things really escalated with my marriage, in a bad way, and I didn't fully make a decision. But I made a decision to start the process at least, or investigating what it would look like to leave. Probably not the most amazing timing but I see now, years later, how divine it really was.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: So things were rocky and on my own, behind the scenes, I contacted an attorney. I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell any of my girlfriends, none of my family, there was a lot of shame.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: I was young and it felt like I had failed, even though I didn't.
Lauren: Yes, it wasn't you girl.
Katie: It was not me, girl. But I had to protect myself. And, so, I started, at least, investigating the process of filing for divorce. And, I had met with an attorney that was recommended to me, and I remember sitting in her office, and I was sobbing like I haven't sobbed in a really long time.
My mom diagnosed with cancer, but it just came from a place of such grief and fear, "Am I really going to do this on my own when everything else is falling apart?" And I remember that divorce attorney, she looked at me-
Lauren: Was she like, "Get it together?"
Katie: She did and it was the tough love that I didn't know I needed at the time, and I was sitting in her office sobbing. She handed me a box of tissues and she could just snap me out of it. And she said, "I want you to listen to me." And she was real intense, and she looked behind her, and on her desk were a few photos of her children. And she said, "Do you see these two kids here?"
I said, "Yes." And she said they were, I think at the time she said, "They were two and three when I left my husband. If I can do it you can too, and now they're 10 and 11." And it was kind of like, "You can do this. You can absolutely do this, this is warranted. I'm going to help you through this." And I will never forget it because that was probably one of my worst days.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: I've had a few rough days but that was a bad one. And she just snapped me out of it and just gave me the confidence and like, "I got this. I got you, it's okay." So that was kind of happening behind the scenes. And then maybe about a week later I got a call from my family and my aunt said, "You're going to have to come home."
Lauren: Yes, "Because your mom."
Katie: "Your mom, she's in hospice now, and it's going to be a few days."
Lauren: Wow.
Katie: So I immediately left and I drove to Cincinnati and on the way, it's like, "How do you prepare? How do you prepare to say goodbye to your loved one? What do you say-?"
Lauren: To your mom, of all people.
Katie: "To your mom? What do you even say? Where do you even start? How do you begin?" And I think where I landed is just love, that's it. And, so, I was there with her, in this tiny little room, and, gosh, she was in so much pain, and it was really a terrible thing to witness. But, at the same time, it was also one of the greatest gifts of my life to be in that room with her, and to hold her hand, and to let her go. And shortly after I had another wake up moment of, "Wow, this life we live is pretty short and you just saw how fast it can be."
Lauren: Hmm, your mom was young, too.
Katie: Yes, she was 56. Get up, drive home to Nashville, after this funeral, divorce your husband, and move on with your life, and choose you, finally, and that's what I did. There's nothing like staring at death in the face and taking a lesson, and being strong enough and wise enough, to glean direction from it. And it was almost like it was guiding me to, gosh, "Your life could be better."
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: This is an opportunity, and looking back, a lot of people don't make big decisions like this after they've lost a loved one. That's a pretty big decision.
Lauren: But it was already happening.
Katie: Divorce, death, moving jobs, those are all really huge things that we do in our lives, that cause a lot of stress and trauma. But you know what, I have never been more clear in my thinking and my decision. And, so, had the funeral, and I came back to Nashville, and I started the process of moving out, and it took a little time. I needed to catch my breath and really make sure, but at the same time it was like that was probably the best thing that I've ever done for myself.
Lauren: I wonder in that process of losing your mom, how much of that felt familiar?
Katie: Mm, so much felt familiar. But it was never to that point of being so incredibly personal.
Lauren: Right.
Katie: So much felt familiar as far as the motions that you go through. You have to call someone when someone dies. You have to arrange things, and I say that planning a funeral is like planning a wedding in three or four days.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: You have to go through those motions, and I was completely prepared to do that. But what did not feel familiar was the intimacy of holding someone's hand, and see they take their last breath. I'd never experienced that in my life before.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And I feel so fortunate to have had that time. And to have had that presence in that tiny, little, room, it was probably the biggest gift I've ever received being able to do that.
Lauren: Do you, even since you lost her 11 years ago, do you feel her with you?
Katie: All the time.
Lauren: When?
Katie: Hmm, in nature. I've gotten to a point, in my personal growth, where my prescription for myself when I'm feeling a little stressed. Maybe overloaded, maybe spinning out of control sometimes, I'm an entrepreneur so it seems-
Lauren: Don't we all?
Katie: Yes, we all go through things like that. My prescription, that I've learned very well, has been to walk in nature. And if for some reason, my child is sick or something is going on, and I'm not able to do that for a few days, I can feel it.
Lauren: I'm the same way, actually. And I, for myself, need the same prescription. The way I say it is be in the trees, "I've got to go be in the trees." Because I just have to. There's something about connecting to something so much larger, just even the size, just so much larger than you, so much more vast than you.
Katie: Absolutely.
Lauren: So you feel her there, huh?
Katie: I feel her there, and my mom was a huge animal lover, again, she was pretty quirky. So a lot of people said that she liked animals better than humans, and it was probably true, most of the time. Her and I have a special bond over horses. And I grew up riding and she taught me how to ride and had horses, and I was lucky enough to be in a barn and smell the smell of a barn.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: And we shared that together. And it's just so amazing because after she had passed away. I got involved in a group here in Nashville called Young Leaders Council, and they train young professionals how to serve on boards.
So I went through the program and then you get matched with the nonprofit. And I really didn't know what I wanted to do, and a lot of the nonprofits were already taken that I thought that I wanted.
Well, I think, there was a different plan for me because there's an organization in Franklin, Tennessee called Saddle Up. And it's a nonprofit that is equine therapy for children with disabilities. And it was actually after my mom had died and I'm like, "Hmm, I get it."
So I still serve with them, till this day, years later. And every time I see a horse, or I'm in nature, even on the couch with my dog, I just feel her. And it's really cool to learn how to embrace those reminders. You call them whispers-
Lauren: Mm-hmm, I do.
Katie: ...and winks, if you will, it's really amazing if you can be open to that, and I'm so glad I am. And, I think, being raised in a funeral home really made me a little more comfortable with death, than a lot of other people.
Lauren: Oh, sure, so many people are not. So many people put off so many end-of-life decisions. Because they're afraid of things ending for themselves, so they don't make choices for themselves. Because they're just afraid of; what does that look like?
Katie: Right, and why wouldn't we be afraid of what is unknown? It is very unknown but, also, lately here I've just been really open to having conversations about it.
Lauren: Mm.
Katie: I had a friend, she passed away very suddenly in the Fall, last Fall. She was only 50-years old and just the most amazing woman, and she passed away so suddenly. And I remember sitting at her funeral thinking, "Wow, I better go home and talk to my husband. We have a lot to talk about."
Lauren: Yes, which I should point out, we didn't even tell this part of the story, you did find the love of your life. You did marry someone else, you do have a son. So you went-
Katie: Yes, happy ending.
Lauren: You went home to your, I mean, I don't even want to call him new husband because you've been married for a while, but current. How about that current?
Katie: Current, yes, the keeper.
Lauren: The keeper husband, so you went back to that husband, last year when you lost your friend.
Katie: Yes, absolutely. And, so, this gift of having death, somehow, be my guider and it has just shined a light on so many things, and it has woken me up to a lot. I went home and I said, it was him and I, across the table, our little boy had gone to bed already. And I was like, "I know this is not a super fun conversation but I think it's really important, and I want to know how you want to be celebrate. And I want you to know how I want to be celebrated and also how I don't."
Lauren: Yes, let's be clear.
Katie: I've seen hundreds of funerals, in my day, good or bad. And I just want us to have that conversation, as hard and maybe as taboo as it may be, let's talk about it. And, so, we came up with some really, amazing ways to honor each other and it was surprising. And he said, "Please don't have it at a church, have it at a brewery."
Lauren: Oh, yes, he's my new best. I don't know your husband, but now I feel like I do know your husband.
Katie: He's like, "I just want you to have a celebration at a brewery."
Lauren: I love that.
Katie: And he also said to me, and I think this is so amazing, and I have now adopted this as well. He said he wants to be cremated and he wants his very close loved ones to have some of his cremains. And for those cremains to be scattered somewhere they have never been.
Lauren: Oh, my gosh, I'm going to cry, ooh, that's something.
Katie: It is. But if you think about what a gift that could be to someone else who's grieving your loss, that's quite amazing. And, so, after we've had this discussion, I reserve the right to change my mind. And, so, we watched these huge fireworks' display over Labor Day, it was so beautiful.
There's just something about fireworks that is so moving. And not long after that fireworks display, just really about a week ago, very casually as we're making dinner. I said, "Hey, you know what, I also went fireworks at my funeral." And he's like, "Katie, that's going to require permits."
And I was like, "I know, but, I mean, you'll be able to figure that out, right?"
And he is like, "Yes, I'll figure it out." Oh, my gosh.
Lauren: Well, it just depends on how big you want the display. You know what I mean? You could do, look, here's the deal, I mean, I'm just going to tell you straight up. Yes, I'm in the news and yes, I'm in the business of telling people to do what's right, and stay away from doing what's wrong.
Katie: Sure.
Lauren: But I'm just going to tell you, if you have a crapton of fireworks and you just start blowing them off in the backyard, if the police show up and you said to the police, "Let me just tell you what's going on." I mean, you wouldn't. You wouldn't be able to.
Katie: Sure.
Lauren: But if your husband says like, "Listen, I get that I don't have a permit, but let me be clear with you here's the situation." They'd be like, "You're right. You did right." No one's going to be, I mean, maybe I'm the outlaw that's going to tell you, "You don't need a permit for that girl, especially, on short notice."
Katie: But I just think it comes back to living better, loving harder, just being more aware and more intentional. About who we want to be when we grow up, not what we want to be.
Lauren: Yes, well, I feel that from you. Every time that I've been with you, you come to situations differently than most people. I would say most people, well, first of all, let's start here. I would like to point out that this is probably an uncomfortable exchange because you are not a talker you are a listener.
So just right out of the gate, this might already be something, and you're like, "I'm not totally in love with this podcast because I'm making you talk instead of listen."
So that's already what you bring in every iteration, every conversation, with everyone, number one. And then number two, I always feel from you, you always have a reverence for the moment. And I had never put my finger on it until listening to you today of like, "No wonder." Because there's this understanding that things end, good ends, bad ends.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: So even in the worst times, you know it will be over and even in the best times you know it will be over. There's an ending to all of it. And, so, I do always with you, Katie, I always sense a reverence for the moment.
Katie: Mm-hmm, thank you.
Lauren: No, it's a beautiful thing. I don't think many people have that, but you have that. Which is fascinating, we haven't even talked about what it is that you do for a living, but I really feel that's why I love this podcast and doing this podcast.
Because we are so much more than our work. What we really are, are the sum of our experiences and the lessons we've learned. And, so, here you have this incredible lesson to learn and to teach other people. And how it's, I guess, influenced the rest of your life. You leaving, gosh, how many times have you left big jobs and you've gone out on your own twice, right?
Katie: Yes.
Lauren: It's just such an interesting thing that you've done and to be in PR. I would never just off the top say, "Oh, death and PR have a lot to go, they're a little similar."
Katie: They're not similar at all.
Lauren: Exactly.
Katie: But I would say there's story.
Lauren: Mm.
Katie: There's story to death, and memories, and love, and grief, and in all of those things there are stories. So somehow in a way that has equipped me for what I do now, as a grownup.
Lauren: Yes, as a grown up.
Katie: Not as 16, driving a hearse but as a 42-year-old woman.
Lauren: Yes, running her own PR firm, I mean, it's just really amazing. I would've never thought of that, but the truth is I know that. I mean, story is everything, narrative is everything. Narrative is how we developed as humans, before we ever had the ability to write things down, we told stories.
Lessons, were in stories, they still are, and I'm always captivated by even songs, songs with story, that's how we capture an emotion. And you're doing the same thing, you're just doing it for companies or for organizations. I know the ones that are real dear to you, they allow you to tell stories, which is incredible. How do you feel about your work?
Katie: It took me a while to get to where I am now, as a woman in her forties who has her own business and agency, if you will. Agency, and me, and I guess, agency too. The background about that is throughout my whole career, I'd always been in marketing and PR, and event planning, it's all, kind of, been there, and I've worked for very large organizations. And that has been just what's easy for me. I gravitate towards, financial services, healthcare, it's hard to tell those stories. It's not-
Lauren: How do you get the emotional connection to the bank?
Katie: Right, exactly, but that's really been where I shine. But as you mentioned earlier, this is my second stint, is being an entrepreneur. And really this is where I'm growing, and flourishing, and just thriving so much because I finally listened to myself.
Lauren: Mm, that's what I was going to ask you. What changed?
Katie: Sure. So I'd gone back and forth, working for large companies. And way back in 2010, I was working for a bank, at the time, and 2010 wasn't the best time to be working-
Lauren: Yes, this was the great recession time.
Katie: Right, it wasn't the best time to be working for a bank. So I decided, I'm like, "Well, I don't think I'm going to be moving up the chain anytime soon in marketing here in a bank." So, on a whim, and good or bad, I didn't know what I was doing, I just knew that I had to do something else. And I knew that the door was closed at the bank and I wanted to open my own door.
Lauren: Hmm.
Katie: So, on a whim, I just decided to open up a corporate event planning company. It was so amazing because that experience taught me that I could.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: So my family, they're entrepreneurs and I've been surrounded by entrepreneurs before, and it always sparked this fire in me of like, "Ooh, I want to do that someday." But to actually do it is-
Lauren: It's hard work.
Katie: ...is very hard work and it can be terrifying at times.
Lauren: Lots of courage.
Katie: Lots of courage and I did that for a few years, and I absolutely loved it. And I wasn't looking for corporate job again because I felt like, "Oh, I've finally figured out what I'm going to do."
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: But one of my clients was a large healthcare system. There was some turnover and there was an opening for director of marketing, a PR job, and I don't know, something about the timing. It all just worked together and it was a great opportunity to learn healthcare, and to do something different. And, so, I kind of took a chance and-
Lauren: I love that you say, "I took a chance." You took a chance and went into a corporation, which usually is opposite. People say, "I took a chance and leave."
Katie: You're right, but I had to take a chance because I had to leave my baby, that I'd just started. This little business that I had and I didn't know healthcare.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: So I was going into this corporate job, again, not knowing healthcare, and I absolutely loved it. I loved learning. It was such a great opportunity for me. And at the time, personally, I had a lot going on in my personal life.
I had met my now husband and we got married, and during that time, in the healthcare organization, it was all about growing and learning. And I was able to get my graduate degree. I went back to school, which was hard and all of that, and really grew, and really learn, then life changed. Life changed a lot because my husband and I had our little boy and everything changed.
Lauren: Yes, kids do that.
Katie: That period of time was really when I say all of my upbringing reminders, of this life being so fragile and precious came flooding in.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: And I learned another really big lesson. I would go to work every day and I would drive my little through the parking lot, and there were just loads of fancy cars, really fancy cars.
Lauren: Right, because you're parking next to doctors and executives.
Katie: Sure, administrators. So I would go to work every day and I had this reoccurring thought that, "Wow, now that I have my master's degree, I too can have one of these amazing cars, and that will mean that I have made it."
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: "And then I will get a promotion and I will go here, and then my trajectory of my career will do all these things, and then I will, too, be able to afford this big home and all of these things." Because I think somewhere along the line, I don't even know when, I wish I could pinpoint it. I just learned or was taught, I don't know, that success meant achieve, and it meant title, and it meant salary, and the things.
Lauren: Right.
Katie: And I just got really caught up in that and I'm ashamed of that now. But also I wouldn't change it for the world because of where I am now. So I had my little boy and I went back from maternity leave, and things were not great. Not great at all. I was trying so hard to swim, just swim as hard as I could to be a new mom, and a great wife, and a good friend, and serve on these boards.
Lauren: It is so freaking hard. No one gives women enough, can we take a vote? No one gives women enough credit. No woman gets enough credit, when they're coming back from having a baby. Trying to fulfill all the roles. I mean, God knows, did your baby sleep through the night by the time you got back to work?
Katie: No.
Lauren: Exactly, so you're not sleeping. You're giving off your body, still, even after you've had this child, it doesn't stop. And you're trying to fill all the roles at work and at home, and it is so freaking hard.
I think instances of postpartum depression are so much higher than any of the stats would suggest because most women go undiagnosed. Because we think, "Oh, this is just what I'm supposed to do." Girl, no one is supposed to be that unhappy. No one is supposed to be that, I mean, gosh, insomniatic, I don't know if that'sโ you know what I'm saying?
Katie: Exhausted to the bone.
Lauren: Exhausted.
Katie: Exhausted.
Lauren: And none of it is okay and we don't support new moms enough.
Katie: No.
Lauren: I mean, I'm part of the problem too, I need to support new moms more. Because I know how flipping hard it is times three.
Katie: Times three, yes.
Lauren: It's so awful. It's is so bad.
Katie: And thank you for saying that because I remember being on maternity leave and thinking, "Okay, when does it get good?"
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: Really, and you get these cards from Hallmark or wherever, for your baby showers. You get these cards and it's bundle of joy and joy, joy.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And I just remember thinking, "I don't feel the joy, what's wrong. Am I a terrible human? I'm so exhausted I can barely speak." And looking back, I don't know if I had postpartum depression. I didn't know what I didn't know because it was the first time for everything. And it was like, "Whoa, I feel like I got hit by a train."
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: I remember talking to my girlfriends and I'm like, "You guys didn't tell me about this."
Lauren: "Because if we did you wouldn't have a baby."
Katie: Exactly. But, anyway, that period of time was really hard because, again, I thought that I had it all figured out. And when I went back it was just things changed so much. And, so, then you have to ask yourself what are you going to do?
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: Now what?
Lauren: Yes, you're feeling unhappy and unfulfilled at your work. So what is it? What are we going to do?
Katie: So what's next? And when you spend your entire life achieving and thinking about, "Okay, what's next? That was great, but what's next now? What is the next thing I can do that is even better?" I didn't really have a lot of answers, to be honest. I just knew that what I was doing was not working. I knew I wasn't being the person that I necessarily wanted to be.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And I remember having some tough conversations about, "Well, why don't you just quit and not worry about it?" Well, there's life, bills need to be paid and you can't be irresponsible. You have this new baby and I just had a moment one day.
I was in my car, I was crying and I was in my car and I'm like, "This is not okay the way that I'm feeling." And I remember, I'm driving my Mazda or whatever it was at the time, and I just had this feeling of, "Wow, you drive every day into work and you have this thought that you need a better car. That you need to be driving a BMW or whatever it is."
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And that will mean that you're successful.
Lauren: Yes
Katie: And I had this moment and I joke about this because I think there was some amazing background music like-
Lauren: Bonnie Bear?
Katie: ...like Bonnie bear. Really, it was just this just amazing moment and it was just, "Well, you remember all those funerals. All of those hundreds of funerals that you've seen or worked out, was there ever a time that anyone was buried and said-"
Lauren: Buried in their car, right?
Katie: "...in their car, or in their mansion, or whatever you name it." And it just hit me, once again-
Lauren: Once again death is teaching.
Katie: Absolutely and it was almost like it was tapping on my shoulder and saying, "Absolutely not, you need to stop." And I said it before, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think at that moment in my life, when you're little, people always say, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" A doctor, a firefighter, whatever, but for me, the lesson I learned in that moment was not what do I want to be when I grow up. But what kind of human being.
Lauren: Mm, who.
Katie: Right, who.
Lauren: I had another guest, Shannon Schottler, she said, "I look at purpose as how do I want to be with."
Katie: Yes.
Lauren: Not what do I want to be, or what do I want to do, it's how do I want to be with.
Katie: I love that.
Lauren: It's a matter of being. A matter of embodying, even.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: So how did you answer that question for yourself? What do you want to embody?
Katie: The simple answer is kind and good. And that sounds so simple, but I have this strange habit that I probably developed working at the funeral home. I read obituaries all the time.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Katie: There is so much wisdom in obituaries. Some are actually quite funny, to me, it's just, yet, another reminder of this life is short and what do you want that to say?
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And it is not, "She had this, or she was this title." It was, "She was incredibly, kind and she gave back, and she lived her life on purpose." And, so, where I am now, I've started my own business now. I've been in business for three years. I do PR for large organizations and some nonprofits as well.
It fills my cup because I always have to have a finger in serving and giving back. And, so, now what that looks is "The who do you want to be?" It means be good and kind. Be a really good mom and be present, not perfect because that's not going to happen.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: But be present. And, gosh, I remember during that dark time of going back after maternity leave. Something struck me, that I never want to experience again with my little boy. I would go home and go through the motions of, "Well, let's make dinner and let's do a bath." And all those things but I don't remember smelling his hair. And I think when you're a mom, you have those sweet moments of just being in awe at this life.
Lauren: Yes, that you've created.
Katie: I wasn't there. I really wasn't there for many reasons, to be fair, but I never not want to do that. And, so, it looks like going to baseball practice, and creating memories.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: It's more about creating memories, and being present, and being a really damn good friend, and a good wife. And, again, it's a journey and it's certainly not perfect, but I really try to be present and have that balance of, "Well, you can own a business and succeed, but your definition of success is completely different." Were you able to get off at four o'clock to make dinner, and go to the ballgame? Were you able to drop everything and go to a friend's mother's funeral?
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: All of those things that equate to living a good full life.
Lauren: Hmm, I wonder if success is even the word. I feel like we should maybe even eradicate it. Maybe it needs to be something else. That's the work you and I will have to do, we have to come up with a different word.
Katie: I love that.
Lauren: Because success is so laden with tangible.
Katie: Sure.
Lauren: With doodads, like with cars, with houses, with neighborhoods, with vacations.
Katie: Yes, success is a word that people just see that way. There's got to be another word that is a more full picture. I mean, sometimes I hear people throw around the word abundance. Wealth, to me, is still too much of a financial word.
Katie: Sure.
Lauren: But maybe it's a life of abundance. Abundance of time. Abundance of love. Abundance of relationships.
Maybe abundance is the word, like you're seeking a life, instead, of abundance, and not, air quotes, "Success." Which I find fascinating. This is something that I'm exploring right now in my own life. Which is abundance and success are not the same thing.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: Because abundance requires you to change your definition of what do you really value and what means that you are successful. Well, abundance would mean that there's, for me, Lauren Lowrey, for me, abundance would be time.
Abundance would be there's more than enough time. More than enough time. Something I battle all the time being in a television newsroom because you're working to the second. And abundance is also, there's abundance of energy. Because I have three children, and then I run this podcast, and then I work full-time as a news anchor, there's more than enough energy.
There's more than enough creativity. There's more than enough money to pay for all of it. All the preschool, all the podcast, the mortgage. [Inaudible 00:47:24] need to go through all the things that I have pay for. All the things. So, to me, I, in real-time, am having to learn that lesson of changing the definition of success, and maybe reframing it to abundance. There's more than enough, there's more than enough.
For you, maybe it's more than enough clients. There's more than enough clients who will pay for me to help some of these other nonprofits that really fill my cup. Do you have another word that you think might work instead?
Katie: Just striving for what brings you peace and what protects your peace.
Lauren: Hmm.
Katie: And peace to me is those morning walks in nature. Peace to me is smelling my little boy's hair.
Lauren: Even when he is dirty from baseball.
Katie: Even when he is so dirty, yes, all the time. Peace. What brings you the most peace? Because it's not tied to the thing. It is tied to-
Lauren: Well, it's a feeling.
Katie: It is.
Lauren: Isn't it? I mean, which is so much more real.
Katie: Yes.
Lauren: I think about my therapist, she says this all the time too, where she's like, "Unless you can feel the change or feel the solution in this moment, you'll never grasp a hold of what it is that you're trying to really change." Because unless you feel it, it doesn't have meaning.
So the goal is always to feel the change. For me, I'll give you a real-time example. In a newscast, what do I have? I have two and a half minute commercial breaks. Sometimes they're two minutes, sometimes they're three minutes. But a two-and-a-half-minute commercial break is just enough time, for me, literally, this is the mug that I take every day to work, it's my favorite mug and it is my tea mug.
So two-and-a-half-minute commercial break is enough time, for me, to go get some new hot tea. I take a moment, I breathe in, the usually it's mint, mint vapor from the tea. I take a few deep breaths, I feel myself start to calm down, and then I'm ready to go again. Because those newscasts can be woo, I mean, like, high-intensity stuff.
And, so, if I personally don't take a moment to bring myself back down, I mean, then it just sets me off for the rest of the evening. And then I have to go be with my kids, and they expect and deserve love. So if I don't take those commercial breaks, during that time I'm on air, that's something major for me. That is a felt connection for renewal. That's my felt thing.
So I feel like with all of us, if we don't feel something. If we don't feel the joy, or feel the abundance, or feel the peace, we'll never make the changes that get us closer to those things that will bring real fulfillment and purpose. We just won't.
Katie: Right.
Lauren: Because it'll be all of this, it'll be all head, no heart.
Katie: And I think you also have to feel the unfulfillment, and you have to feel the anxiety and stress and lump in your throat. You have to sit in that. People make changes because of pain.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And, so, I think you have to have self-awareness to sit in that and say, "This is not right. I've been operating on the wrong cylinders. I've not been operating well." And to have the self-awareness to stop.
Lauren: Yes.
Katie: And I think, sadly, a lot of people get caught up in that cycle. Where it becomes their norm and, so, they never say, "Hmm, this could be better."
Lauren: "I owe it to myself to be better. I owe it to my family to be better."
Katie: Mh-hmm.
Lauren: I wonder why? I mean, and what you just said is a major tenet of what, truly, what this podcast is all about. It's like this recognition that purpose often comes from pain, and its purpose is the choice that comes in the midst of the pain. Of, "I shouldn't be living this way. Life shouldn't be this way; it needs to be better."
Or even if it's in the cloud or in the fog. Sometimes it's just the fog of like, "None of this is right." And it becomes the quest of, "What do I find that is right? What do I find that brings me joy? What is it I find that brings me peace?" That quest becomes the pursuit of purpose because it's all, oftentimes, a pursuit to get out of pain.
Katie: Yes.
Lauren: And that's beautiful. It's a beautiful process if we allow it. I want to think that a lot of people allow it. I mean, maybe, I'm biased because I'm surrounded by women who allow it. Which is, again, where this podcast came from.
It's like, "Hey, I know lot of freaking amazing women that have had these same situations. And whether we talk about it or not, it doesn't change the fact that it happened. You lost your mom young, and then you had a baby and that changed your life too. All these things keep changing your life, but it keeps coming back to those same lessons, the fragility of this life that we live and how short it can be.
Katie: Right.
Lauren: And what a beautiful lesson to teach because you've lived it. Once you've lived it, you can teach it.
Katie: Absolutely, and it's funny when people meet me and I surprise them with the fact that I grew up in a funeral home.
Lauren: Grew up in a funeral home.
Katie: Most people don't have a lot of questions because-
Lauren: They don't know what to ask.
Katie: They don't know what to ask. They're terrified. They would just rather not touch on that subject. But I have found that some people, when we really go into it. I had lunch, the other day, with this woman and we were talking about it, and we had the most beautiful conversation about her grandmother who passed.
Lauren: Mm.
Katie: And I just wish that we could get a little more comfortable speaking their names.
Lauren: Mm.
Katie: And, so, I found myself at a business lunch, the other day, and I said, "Well, what was her name? Tell me about her. What was she like?" And, so, we just had this beautiful conversation because she was willing to go there and, of course, I was as well. But I wish we could talk about it more to make it just part of how we live.
Lauren: Yes. It's interesting, the juxtaposition, of life and death.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: My dad has the saying, nothing, I'll paraphrase, nothing makes you contemplate life more than a birth or a death. A new baby who comes into the world or someone who leaves the world, that is what brings clarity, if you allow it.
But so many people don't even want to feel it, which I think is a missed opportunity. You have to open up to all of it because it is all part of this thing we call life. It is part of the condition, the human condition of loving losing, but also learning from that loss. Any parting words today, Katie Radel?
Katie: I would just like to say we're all given this amazing thing called an intuition. I've always ignored my intuition because it was easier to. And I guess, when I grew up and I had faced adversity, and had lived my life long enough to experience a lot of life, that intuition has become stronger every day.
I would say I've befriended death and grief and I've also befriended my intuition. And I think it's so important not to stuff your intuition away. Because every time I have listened, really, truly, have gotten still enough to listen to that intuition, it has led me down a path that I'm so grateful for.
And I think that day in the car, when I was crying and Bonnie Bear was playing, it was my intuition and it's always been there. But it, it was finally like, "Okay, I get it, thank you so much."
Lauren: What did it say? "Leave."
Katie: Yes, "Go."
Lauren: "Go, what are you doing here?"
Katie: Go and I've been a long time listener of your podcast, I love it.
Lauren: I appreciate it.
Katie: I hear from so many of your guests about their intuition, and it's this theme. And, gosh, I just think the world would be better if we could all just get in tune with our intuition a little more. Because it is such a true guide, and it's so unique, and it's, truly, ours.
Lauren: Yes, I love that. Thank you for being here.
Katie: Yes, thank you for having me.
[00:56:53] < Outro >
Lauren: I love Katie's views on success, and intuition, and abundance, it all feels so resonant for me. And I think, mainly, because she just hits on things that I'm always thinking about. Katie is someone who's past the BS of expectation.
I mean, she's too old for it, she doesn't care, and those are my favorite people. Because she's found ways to cultivate meaning in her life. She's made choices that allow her to put time and energy into what she truly values and, to me, that is so incredibly inspiring.
Now, after I record every episode, my audio guy, CJ, he sends me the file to review. I go back through the episode, I find my favorite parts, and then CJ turns those into video clips that you can see on Instagram.
So when I was reviewing this episode, I was really struck by my conversation with Katie, specifically, that part about success versus abundance and really reevaluating that. It hit me in a really authentic way. And, so, I've decided to do a solo episode about it next week.
It wasn't my original plan, but now it is. Because, as you know, with season three, I've committed to sharing lessons. Not just of awesome women, but also sharing the lessons that I'm learning in my own life, in real-time.
Because I feel like there's an extra authenticity with that. I'm not just giving you lip service. I'm telling you what I'm learning and I'm working it out with you in these episodes. And I have to believe if I'm thinking about it, other women are too. So I'm just going to talk about it, and Katie is right, so many of my guests have been sharing about intuition lately.
I didn't expect that when I set out to put this season together. But I've been thinking of my group of friends, and if we can normalize this. Normalize following your heart, normalize listening to yourself, and the messages your body is sending you, then we can help more women begin to cultivate meaning and purpose in their lives.
Because that's the path to purpose. Following your curiosity, following what excites you and makes you feel whole.
Now as you go through your week, I encourage you, take a minute, think about this, what's been your teacher? And while you do that, shine your light, lead with your heart, and live life purposefully.
I'm Lauren Lowrey, and this is AMPstigator.
[00:59:12] < Music >
